Forum : Armi portatili

Soggetto : Funzionamento Abwehrflammenwerfer 42

 Andrea Bertoni :

18/6/2007 21:29
 Ciao ragazzi,
ho una domandina facile facile per voi:
sapete descrivermi con esattezza il funzionamento di questo lanciafiamme da postazione che popolava le coste Normanne al tempo dello sbarco alleato?
Grazie al buon Stefano sono venuto venuto in possesso di alcune foto dell'oggetto in questione e ho sotto mano anche un breve testo in francese ma non riesco a capire come in concreto veniva azionato.
Ho cercato in rete ma ho trovato poche notizie ed anche li sempre in francese.
Ho capito che l'arma veniva azionata a distanza ma non sono riuscito a comprendere di piú:quindi sintetizzando,come diavolo funzionava?
Per chi non lo conoscesse l'Abwehrflammenwerfer 42 è questo gingillo qui:

 Simone1311 :

19/6/2007 10:32
 Ciao Andrea.. non so come funzionava, anche perchè per me è un'arma nuova!!! :-)
però se mi posti il testo in francese posso darti una mano.. je parle un peu de français aussi! (parlo anche un po' di francese) :-) magari riesco a darti una mano!

Ciao Simone

 stebi51 :

19/6/2007 12:02
 Sono andato su Wikipedia ed ho trovato un testo in inglese, che ti traduco (a modo mio, accontentati) qui di seguito:

Nel tubo piccolo verticale c'è una carica esplosiva (polvere nera oppure dinitrato di glycolodiethylene) che quando esplode crea una pressione interna al serbatoio: il liquido infiammabile, composto da olii di varia viscositá , fuoriesce dal bocchettone principale.
All'uscita un'altra carica piú piccola fa incendiare il liquido.
La fiammata che fuoriesce ha un diametro di 4.5 m, una gittata di circa 27 metri ed una durata di 1,5 secondo.
Il tutto era quasi totalmente interrato; per innescarlo veniva comandato a distanza oppure collegato ad una sorta di meccanismo/trappola come fili seminascosti, sensori di pressione interrati ecc.
Questo è il link di Wikipedia che puoi consultare direttamente.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abwehrflammenwerfer_42

Ciao, Stefano.

 Andrea Bertoni :

19/6/2007 21:57
 Quote:
per innescarlo veniva comandato a distanza oppure collegato ad una sorta di meccanismo/trappola come fili seminascosti, sensori di pressione interrati ecc.

Grazie Stebi,un discreto passo avanti verso la comprensione del funzionamento è stato fatto anche se la mia curiosità atavica si concentra sul comando a distanza per innescarlo,mi piacerebbe davvero sapere come è fatto:sarà simile a quegli innesci a manovella che si vedono nei film di guerra che fanno scattare le cariche di dinamite??

[ Modificato da Andrea Bertoni il 19/6/2007 21:58 ]

 Andrea Bertoni :

19/6/2007 22:06
 Qualcosa di simile a questo:

 Felix_the_Cat :

19/6/2007 23:18
 Andrea,

il coso a manovella che citi si chiama in realtà esploditore ed è sostanzialmente composto da una dinamo a mano che ha il compito di generare la corrente elettrica sufficiente ad alimentare un detonatore di tipo elettrico, in cui l'accensione è provocata da un filamento metallico all'interno di una miscela incendiaria che viene reso incandescente al passaggio di una corrente elettrica.

Felix the "bomber" Cat :-D

 Stefano :

20/6/2007 12:59
 Bella la foto pubblicata su Wikipedia, pensavo che il nostro klainenlanciafiammenappostatendentroadunbuken...ecc...ecc...fosse piú piccolo, invece il nostro "coso" era un bel tombolotto!!!....
Resta il mistero di come si faceva ad accenderlo per colpire gli incatui fanti che capitavano nel raggio d'azione del lanciafiamme....

Ah dimenticavo...Stefano, Re dell'ottone e del tornio, nn è che magari ti ci metti e ne fai uno in scala 1/1???....così magari tanto per fare... :-o :-) :-D :-D .....

Un saluto

Stefano

 stebi51 :

20/6/2007 17:12
 Quote:

Stefano ha scritto:
Bella la foto pubblicata su Wikipedia, pensavo che il nostro klainenlanciafiammenappostatendentroadunbuken...ecc...ecc...fosse piú piccolo, invece il nostro "coso" era un bel tombolotto!!!....
Resta il mistero di come si faceva ad accenderlo per colpire gli incatui fanti che capitavano nel raggio d'azione del lanciafiamme....

Ah dimenticavo...Stefano, Re dell'ottone e del tornio, nn è che magari ti ci metti e ne fai uno in scala 1/1???....così magari tanto per fare... :-o :-) :-D :-D .....

Un saluto

Stefano


Infatti, il "bussolottendentroalbukenperterren" aveva le dimensioni:

alt. 50 cm
diam. 30 cm
capacità 30 lt

L'innesco del bussolotten avveniva (almeno così ho capito) tipo mine Clymore o roba simile, cioè con dei fili/trappola seminascosti che venivano urtati dai soldati che si avvicinavano al dispositivo oppure direttamente con un comando a distanza tipo esploditore a dinamo.
Wikipedia ci parla di "other device" e quindi non ci aiuta piú di tanto.
In ogni caso, pur rimanendo nella parziale ignoranza del funzionamento del bussolotten, credo che dormirò lo stesso.
Per quanto riguarda la realizzazione al tornio o simili del coso in questione e data l'orrendezza del coso stesso, non ci penso minimamente a farlo, in nessuna scala...
Ciao a tutti, Stefano.
:-) :-D :-)

 PanzerBAER :

21/6/2007 18:21
 il mio AMORE !!! :-D sto riproducendolo in 3d per un gioco per cui moddo (dovrebbe essere la prima volta in un fps 3d che si vede e si usa :-? )

tutte le info qua (nel post successivo la traduzione con russkey per firefox ):
http://tewton.narod.ru/mines-3/fog.html

era la copia di una mina lanciafiamme russa e si innescava tramite comando a distanza oppure cordicella a strappo, na booby-trap alla fiamma :-x

altri link interessanti (mi ero fatto na testa cosi per cercare info a suo tempo :| )

http://site.voila.fr/bunkers/flammenwerfer.htm
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=830014&highlight=abwehrflammenwerfer#830014 (con foto ricostruttive di oggi - Stp Corbiere in Jersey)


Il mio modello 3d low-poly :-D

 PanzerBAER :

21/6/2007 18:22
 The engineer explosive items
The Red Army
Flamethrower contact mine FOG

fog-1.jpg (15341 bytes) Contact mine FOG is intended for the defeat of personnel and light transportation means (motorcycles, automobiles) of enemy by the jet of burning ognesmesi. It is set in action from the control post by means of the message on the electrical circuit of the electro-pulse, which ignites the torch igniters of contact mine. It is established by hand in the soil into the unearthed hole so that the upper part would be raised above the earth's surface.

Is possible installation FOG to the autonomous wear and tear. In this case bringing contact mine into the action is carried out by involuntarily victim itself. In this case is used the trip-wire fuze MUV with the electric-contact plug. With the wear and tear of the fuse, which in this case is used as the electro-contact maker, occurs closing electrical circuit and contact mine operates. However, this version of installation by the acted instructions was not provided for and by the sootvetstvyushchimi equipment FOG was not completed.

Injury of personnel of enemy occurs due to contact with the body of burning ognesmesi, as a result of which the man obtains thermal defeat. I.e. to him cause themselves the burns of different degree of gravity (from II on THE IV) and extensiveness. This it leads in the dependence on the gravity of defeat either to the temporary failure of soldier or to death. Second defeats to man cause themselves due to the caught fire clothing and the located by a number local objects, the explosion, the existing with it ammunition. Furthermore, the action Of fOGov renders strong moral effect on entire remaining personnel, which did not fall under the jet of burning ognesmesi.

The defeat of the light transport of enemy occurs as a result of the entry of ognesmesi for machine frame, in consequence of which the machine lights up.

Furthermore, FOGi can be used for creating the sudden centers of fires in the scaffolding, steppe with the dried vegetation or fields, buildings, the populated areas, industrial objects, the fuel depots or ammunition.

FOG is completed by two types of the devices of the distribution of ognesmesi.
* the first is head with five nozzles, located in the circle in the form of pentagonal star. With the wear and tear Of fOGa of ognesmes' it is ejected in five directions, forming the zone of continuous fire in a radius from 45 it is meter (viscous ognesmes') to 100 it is meter (liquid ognesmes').
* the second is the bent tube with one nozzle. With the wear and tear Of fOGa of ognesmes' it is ejected in one direction to the distance from 60 m. (liquid ognesmes') to 140 m. (viscous ognesmes'). The damaging ability of the second device is above due to the larger concentration of ognesmesi and sootvestvenno of more prolonged combustion.

fog-2.jpg (15971 bytes)It follows from the existing documents that FOGi adapted by the Red Army in 1941. Possibly, and into 1942-43. Some sources indicate their use during the battle on the Kursk salient of in summer 1943. It is possible to assume that the specific quantity of contact mines FOG was prepared prior to the beginning of war, which was used. However, obviously their production was convoluted in the period of war, since this device is sufficiently complicated by its construction, are used scarce materials and complex technology (high-quality welding, turning work, copper, high-grade steel). It suffices to take into consideration, that the housing of contact mine this is the vessel, which works under the high pressure (more than 45-50 atmosphere), and the production of similar vessels always presented large complexity.

Structurally flamethrower contact mine FOG is welded steel cylinder (1) of cylindrical form with the rounded bottoms. Diameter 28 cm., the height (on the five-nozzle head) of "0sm.
Two carbines with the male thread are welded in the upper bottom. The carbine, located in center (2) is intended for the fastening in it of the copper tube of high pressure (4), thin metallic membrane (5) and five-nozzle head (6). The bent single-nozzle tube can be used instead of the five-nozzle head.
Lateral carbine (3) is intended for positioning gas generator (7).
Inside the balloon gas-distributing copper lattice is located (8). Balloon is filled with 20 kg. ognesmesi (9).
Liquid ognesmes' is the mixture of gasoline with the worked out motor oil.
Viscous ognesmes' is the motor gasoline with the dissolved in it powder-like thickener OP -2 (2 kg.) color from the light yellow to the light brown. The composition of thickener is unknown, but the nature of the combustion of viscous ognesmesi makes it possible to assume that these are napalm or something is similar.

From the author. If this is so, then the priority of Americans in the invention of napalm as that washes.

Five-nozzle head is the section of the pipe, which has the female thread from both ends. Inside there is a border (11) for the pressing to the carbine of membrany(shch) and a border (12) for the retention of the cartridge of the ignition of sostava(ye). In side walls of tube are welded five expanding to the ends and several flattened tube- nozzles (10). On top into the tube screws itself steel plug (14), which has on top hex head for the open-end wrench. The wires of electric fuse are passed through the opening in the plug. the fitted into the cartridge ignition composition.

Gas generator (7) is steel cap with the female thread at the lower end. Inside the cap are located seven grainfog-3.jpg (17322 bytes) (15), retained by copper net (16). Above the cartridges is placed primer (17), into which is also fitted the electric fuse, wires from which leave outside through the opening in the upper part of the cap.

With the installation of contact mine, wire from the gas generator and from the five-nozzle cap they are connected between themselves paralel'no and the wire, which goes to the control panel, is joined to them.

During the supplying of stress into the chain (not less than 6 volts) primer (17) lights up and ignites simultaneously everything seven powder shashek(yshch). Resultant solid-reactant gases are passed through the copper net, whose basic task to separate the open flame from the gases, and they fall into the upper part of the balloon. Copper lattice (8) in the upper part of the balloon distributes pressure evenly throughout the entire area of ognesmesi and additionally cools gases.
Under the pressure of the solid-reactant gases of gas generator (45-50 atm.) ognesmes' begins to rise along the tube of high pressure (4), tears up the membrane (5) and falls into five-nozzle head (6). Here it is encountered with the flame from the cartridge of ignition composition, lights up and through nozzles (10) is ejected outside.

If the single-nozzle bent tube is established instead of the five-nozzle head on the balloon, then ignition shashka(ye) is located in the box, welded to the tube in its forward section, and the membrane, is retained by the adapter nut, screwed to the end of the tube.

Contact mine can be established by hand in the soil or tie to the local objects, be placed inside the buildings, the construction, the forest obstructions, etc.
The period of the combat work of contact mine was not determined.
Contact mine is not equipped with self-destruction device.
The elements of antidisturbance and nondisarmability it does not have. Neutralization is produced by the shearing of the wires of electric brush with the subsequent extraction of cartridges and by the discharge of ognesmesi.
Tactical-technical characteristics of flamethrower contact mine FOG.
Type of contact mine............................................................ protivopekhotnyy/protivotransportnyy flamethrower controlled.
Housing............................................................................... steel
Mass (without the charge of ognesmesi)......................................... 32-35 kg.
Masa of the charge of ognesmesi.................................................... 20 kg. (25 liters)
Length (on the five-nozzle cap).............................. "0sm.
Diameter........................................................................ 28sm.
Temperature range of application of..................... -20 - +50 deg.
Lethal area with the five-nozzle head:
by liquid ognesmes'yu........................ the circle with a radius of 90-100m.
by viscous ognesmes'yu......................... the circle with a radius of 45-50m.
Distance of defeat with the single-nozzle tube:
by liquid ognesmes'yu..................... 59-60m.
by viscous ognsmes'yu........................ 130-140m.
Developed pressure inside balloon.......................... 45-50 atm.
Antidisturbance.......................................................... no
Nondisarmability................................................. no
Samolikvidatsiya/samoneytralizatsiya....................... it net/net
Period of combat work................................................... it were not determined

fog-4.jpg (13006 bytes)By the standard installation of contact mine there was its installation into the hole with depth near "0sm. and by the diameter of 30 cm. in this case nozzles must be raised above the earth's surface not less than on 2 cm. Balloon is tightened in the hole by four wooden wedges and is disguised with improvised means. Wires are plotted in the slot, cut through in the soil.

The information about the corking of contact mines there is not. It is colored with oil paint green. The information about the marking there is not. Into the troops it entered to those nonfinally equipped. Into its complete set entered besides balloon itself, 30- liter capacity, two buckets, funnels, two caps (five-nozzle and single-nozzle), ten grain, on two fuse and ignition cartridges even two boxes with the powder OP -2 (at 2 kg. each). Ognesmes' was prepared directly before the application.

From the author.In the photograph the to the left two versions of flamethrower contact mine FOGfog-5.jpg (11915 bytes) in the St. Petersburg museum the history of the defense of Leningrad. One of them is standard with the single-nozzle tube. Tube with the box for the ignition cartridge and the gas generator is well visible.
Second version of contact mine simplified. Here single-nozzle tube is simply welded into the balloon and the section of pipe for positioning another torch igniter is welded instead of the box for the ignition cartridge to it. Gas generator on the balloon is absent. Is visible only carbine for it.

Автор приносит свои благодарности Егору Окуневу за поиск сохранившихся экземпляров ФОГ, Александру Павловичу Нечаеву за сохранение раритетных экземпляров инженерных боеприпасов и разрешение сфотографировать предметы его коллекции, старшему научному сотруднику музея Муравьевой Ирине Александровне за помощь в организации сьемок.


The flamethrowers of all types render enormous moral effect on the personnel, although their real damaging ability is not so great, as this seems. Indeed the large part of ognesmesi burns even during the flight. This type of weapon found and finds very limited application, although to arrange the improvised flamethrower contact mine is very simple. Completely it suffices to bury into the earth canister, can, strelyannuyu case from the krupanokalibernogo projectile, after filling with its gasoline or another petroleum product and to place under it the small charge of explosive. Completely decent flamethrower contact mine here and came out. But, obviously, the applicability of flamethrower contact mines is limited by the presence in troops of the petroleum products (gasoline, diesel fuel, oil, petroleum residue, crude oil), which usually sharply do not be sufficient even for combat materiel. Therefore for the flamethrowers to use only those petroleum products, which that to reasons proved to be unfit for the machines is possible on what.
, where the oil it is sufficient, a similar type of weapon finds very wide application, although it is more frequent in the form of primitive ditches, ditches, filled with crude oil and ignited in the case of the attack of enemy. This method was widely used by Egyptians and Syrians in the last Arabo-Isreali wars, in particular in the war 1973, by Iraqis during both wars with the Americans (1991 and 2003).
Sources

1. book on the Soviet mine-explosive means without starting data (without the cover and the title page). Supposedly publication 1943-44 it is annual.
2. Merkblatt ueber russische Spreng- und Zundmittel, Minen und Zuender. Ihr Einsatz Beim Feind Und Ihre Beseitigung. Oberkommando des Heeres (Chef H Rust und B d E) Az.34 d16/4f AHA Pi.Abt. (Zn 5) Ia2 Nr 1/42. Berlin, 1.1.1942.
e.E.Yu.Orlova. Chemistry and the technology of high explosives. Chemistry. Lenigrad. 1973g.
ya.L.Vennen, E.Byurlo, To a.Lekorshe. Powders and explosives. ONTI. Main editorial staff of chemical literature. Moskva.y9e'g.
5. war in Korea. Range. Saint -Peterburg.2000g.
'.A.Mikhaylov. Iraqi trap. Victorious defeat Of sShA.Yauza. Eksmo. Moscow. 2004g.
".Uchebnik" engineers ". Military publishing house. Moscow 1982g.
8.A.I.Ivolgin. Development and the application of mine-blasting means. Military publishing house. Moscow. 1956g.
9. L.Monin, A.Gallimor. The Devil`.s Gardens. A History Of Landmines. PIMLIccO.London. 2002
10. B.V.Varenyshev and other textbook. Military-engineering preparation. Military Publishing house Of MO SSSR - Ministry of Defense of the USSR. Moscow. 1982g.
yy.E.S.Kolibernov and other reference book of the officer of engineers. Military Publishing house Of MO SSSR - Ministry of Defense of the USSR. Moscow. 1989g.

 Andrea Bertoni :

21/6/2007 21:46
 PanzerBAER (non è che hai anche un nome di battesimo piú ortodosso del nick? :-)) grazie mille per le vagonate di info!!!
Felix grazie per la spiegazione ingegneristica sulla "manovella" ;-)

 PanzerBAER :

22/6/2007 01:31
 si :-D paolo, sto nick risale ad enemy territory quando giocavo solo e non avevo ancora scoperto il modding per i giochi :-)

- Vantaggi della modellazione 3d: nessuno che stressa con "uddio che puzza [di smalti e colla] per l'amor di dio fai fuori sti lavori che impesti casa !! :-x " (mamma) o "ma dove mettiamo tutte ste scatole ??" (babbo)

- Svantaggi della modellazione 3d, uno SOLO e GRANDE: il modello 3d puoi entrarci dentro, viverlo, spararci pure contro e vederlo distrutto che tanto poi riavvi la missione ! :-D ma non lo potrai mai toccare in real life :-( :-(

a meno di non avere una stampante 3d :-D !! Quote:
STAMPANTE 3-D ******* [ ;-) ] : di dimensioni compatte, questa stampante offre una produzione automatica di modelli termoplastici rigidi e duraturi. Adesso ad un prezzo irresistibile: € 14.000!


costa un botto ma.. :-D

[ Modificato da PanzerBAER il 22/6/2007 1:43 ]

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